Rebutting Hersies @ Is The Jawhar Perpetual

Is the Jawhar Perpetual

Question and Answer on BidaAnswers

Q & A: Is the jawhar perpetual?
May 19, 2008

Question: I have a question regarding atomism that the Salafis are charging on us Sunnis. Do the Ashari really believe that the atom is perpetual in the sense that it itself is not an accident? So, this is one special object that exists, all else is accident? And this one special object is the common composition of everything? I know about there not being an infinitely indivisible particle, but my question is regarding its perpetuality. Should not this small special object “the atom” be an accident itself, as God would have to recreate it at every instant. So then everything in the universe is an accident according to the Asharis but based on the existence of this indivisible particle?

Yasir Qadi says: “For the Asharites, the only perpetual object is the atom. The atom itself is created at a specific point in time, but after that time, it remains in creation until God wills otherwise.”

Answer: First of all never say “God would have to recreate it,” because God does not have to do anything. This is one of the most important principles of belief.

Second, using the word “atom” is a bit misleading. Asharis do not hold that the atom is the jawhar, the indivisible element of physical things. Take a look at the following article to know more about this: The Indivisible Element

As for your question: They are all things that have a beginning. “Accidents” or `arad, better translated as “incidental characteristics,” in my opinion, are simply attributes of the indivisible element (jawhar) that bodies are made of. None of them can exist without the other, but the indivisible elements are more lasting, because if there is a change in a body, then the `arad has changed, but the jawhars presumably remain the same. That is why they are longer lasting, but not perpetual in an absolute sense, only relative to the `arad. On the other hand, a jawhar cannot be without being either moving or still, so you cannot have a jawhar without `arad, because movement and stillness are `arad.


Um, there’s one slight small tip of an iceberg you might want to know Shaykh Abu Adam al Naruiji.

You have basically given a slight commentary on your creed in how you view the creation which is highlighted in bold. There is one slight problem with that that you might want to reconsider. Here it is, are you ready?, get set?

You’re applying the properties and principles in how you view the creation to be consisted of, and applying them to Allah who is not bound by the creation Nor is He Himself within the bounds of the properties of His creation. Therefore you are applying properties that are inapplicable to One Who is not like the creation


Yasir appears to be a mushabbih, that is why he says things like “The atom itself is created at a specific point in time, but after that time, it remains in creation until God wills otherwise.”


So is that how one is judged as a mushabih, to merely come with a reasoning that is not of your own originally. I guess that would only make sense to Socrates

however, the most trilling blunder is

He imagines this is the Ashari position, because he seems to think that Allah, after a creating something, might just take a break from it and leave it until He wills for it to be no more


Are you now employing t’awil to Yasir’s words. It sure does smell like it. Anyone with a brain can see that this position you had grossly t’awiled yourself into believing as a deduction of his words is actually Yasir’s expression of your own belief, and not his. and what further demonstrates this will be mentioned below in response to the rest of your kalaam on him

This is equivalent to the Judeo-Christian belief that the creator took a rest on the 7th day. He has the same position on causation.


Yes, Yasir’s saying is that your creed is equivalent to this, and not that he believes in it. And what renders your reply to be considerably dry i the rest of your kalaam

He (yasir) says that once a thing has been given a power to cause things, to actually influence events, it can be left alone to do its own thing under supervision, in his opinion. Here are his exact words:
“Rather, Allah has created each and every substance with intrinsic properties, and these properties may in fact effect other substances if Allah allows them to.” This belief is one of the origins of shirk, because it explicitly states that Allah’s power is shareable

that is nothing less than insanity

firstly, his statement does not equal in any stretch of anyone’s imagination the belief of causation like the Christians, that is merely a delusion of your own making and a result of clear Ashari dementia

secondly, you claim this as shirk

Allah says in the Qur’an

Indeed We have sent Our Messengers with clear proofs, and revealed with them the Scripture and the Balance (justice) that mankind may keep up justice. And We brought forth iron wherein is mighty power (in matters of war), as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allâh may test who it is that will help Him (His religion) and His Messengers in the unseen. Verily, Allâh is All-Strong, All-Mighty. [057:025]

therefore when Allah declared that iron has within it “mighty power” then He, the Most High, was espousing and enjoining upon us beliefs of shirk, wa iyaadhubillah min dhaalik

In essence, Yasir’s comment must be looked at from this quranic backdrop in which Allah says

None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission (or promise) from the Most Gracious (Allâh). [019:087]

The essence of His statement is that Allah is the absolute and only source of power, and that power is granted by Allah to those of His creation whom He wishes to grant it to.

likewise Allah says the following

Verily, he (shaytaan) has no power over those who believe and put their trust only in their Lord (Allâh). [016:099]

His power is only over those who obey and follow him (Satan), and those who join partners with Him (Allâh, i.e. those who are Mushrikûn, i.e., polytheists.[016:100]

Thus Allah afirms “power” for shaytaan and made limits of that power. Under the Naruiji madhaab, Allah espoused shirk in His Book.

Lastly, Yasir does not intend the idea that once a thing is created , that it is granted certain powers, and based on those powers it is relatively free of Allah in its maintanance as Naruiji insinuates of Yasir. His insinuation is nothing more than a clear academic dishonesty.

anyways, Shaykh Naruiji continues


This belief in complete or partial rest comes from the methodology of thinking of Allah in terms of created things


Look who’s talking Mr. jawhar cannot be without being either moving or still, so you cannot have a jawhar without `arad, because movement and stillness are `arad

The mushabbihah believe that Allah’s actions are sequential events: doing one thing and then another and another and so on. Actually though, Allah’s actions are not events, they do not start or stop, they are not sequential, they are not in time. They are without a how.


Yes, that maybe what mushabiha beleive. We wouldn’t know because we do not subscribe to that view.

rather we subscribe to the view that Allah does what He wills in whatever way He wills and the existance of “consequentiality” applies when the Action of God is reflected in the creations receiving of that Action. In other words, Allah’s speaking to Musa was not a product of consequentiality and in a particular time and place as He is outside time and place, YET with regards to our side of the spectrum, the creational reality, He spoke to Musa on Mount Tur with sound that Musa heard and His speech was within the confines of the language in which Musa understood and it happened in that specific time where Musa was at the mount.

our contention with you and others like you shaykh, is when your lot continually, and blindly, apply properties that pertain to the creation (which itself is not in a state of absolute truth as it was never revealed and whatever is not revealed is not something that is compulsory for us to know and therefore irrelevant) and then have the mushabihistic audacity to apply them to Allah Azawajaal and then base the understanding of Allah and His sifaat upon this backdrop. That is the basis of our contention, and until you and your lot realize this, you will forever be in a state of confusion as to how and what we believe and deducing delusional realities as you have with Yasir, due to this neurotic stimulated state of this demented logic you have that no one in this world understands except and non other than demented ones.


Asharis, on the contrary to what was proposed by Yasir, believe that neither a change nor a lasting existence happens even for a moment without Allah having specified and created that. Nothing is ever acting without Allah having specified and created that act to the last detail. This is because every moment of existence for a created thing is only a possibility, so if Allah has not willed for its existence in the next moment, it will not exist.

True, true, true. okay. so let us put this statement of yours to the test. who originally initiated the verse “alif Laam Meem”