Gallery

Rebutting Heresies @ SunniAnswers.com: Infinite Past Events Possible

They say that we say

Wahabi’s say that Aļļaah’s speech is created, but do not know it.
Wahabi said: As for your question regarding the speech of Allah being composed of letters and words, one after the other, how can it be then eternal; if you understand our argument about infinite regress of events in the past, you will understand how Allah’s words are eternal. In fact, to claim otherwise as the Mu’tazilas do is clear cut Kufr. The Quran that we have is the uncreated speech of Allah, which is composed of Suras, verses, words and letters. This has been the creed of Imam Ahmad, and the rest of Ahl al-Sunnah, and this is one of the strongest proof for the Sunni doctrine in support of infinite regress of events in past and future.

In reply to that they say

Comment:

Infinite past events is impossible

This is contrary to your claim, because saying that past events are infinite is to say that the events prior to this moment in time have not finished. This is self-contradictory.

I say the author does not know what the heck he is talking about because to say or affirm infinite regress of past events is not equating these past events to eternality. But again, this is because of their finite thinking that our argument is surrounded under the premises of the philosophers, but the divergent difference is that the philosophers affirmed these events co-equal, in eternity with Allah, whereas merely affirming the infiniteness of events in the past is not making these events co equal with Allah’s eternity, because our affirmation of infinite regress is surrounded around the premise that the creation of things has been taking place in the past continuously without end. That does not rule out the fact that many, if not all, of these things that happened (meaning were already created long before) eventually came to an end in a certain point in time.

Words and letters is the kind of speech that creatures have

So. What does that have to do with Allah?

Speech consisting of words and letters is the speech of creation. For this reason one cannot say that Aļļaah’s eternal attribute of Speech is letters and sounds, because Aļļaah said:

لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ

Meaning: “Absolutely nothing resembles Him.” (Al-Sħuuraa, 11)

A very common trait of yours to negate a specific reality due to a general basis.

Allah says “lysa kamithlihi shay” in this ayaah yet Allah says in another ayaah

{ وإن أحد من المشركين استجارك فأجره حتى يسمع كلام الله }
“And if anyone one of the mushrikoon seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that they may hear the Word (kalaam) of Allah (the Quran)”

Allah says and affirms through this aayaa that they can hear the kalaaam of Allah VIA the speech, letters, and sound that Muhammad initiates in a point in time with his created lisaan.

The question for you jahmis is

how did they, or anyone else, here the kalaam of Allah?

did they hear His Kalaam, or did Allah lie when He revealed this? (wa iyaadhu billah)

Words and letters must be creations

Why? Because words and letters have a beginning. So in “bismillaah”, for example “i” comes after “b”, so when you say bismillaah, the sound “i” only becomes existent after “b” ’s non-existence. This means “i” has become existent after non existence, which means that it needs a creator to exist. Nothing can come into existence without a creator, all Muslims must believe that.

I have news for you jahmis

laysa kamithlihi shay

His speech is not like that of creation

In other words, speech that consists of words and letters is created

Yes, when the creation speaks with it

and since you say that Aļļaah’s eternal attribute of Speech is words and letters, then you are saying that it is created,

No, because we are not making tashbeeh with Allah by likening the Speech of Allah to the speech of creatures. Allah clearly affirmed that the recital that His messenger was going to recite to the mushrikeen is “the kalaam of Allah” and He did not say the “expression of the kalaam of Allah” and this is after Allah is fully aware that Muhammad’s recital consist of words, letters, and a human voice initiated in a point in time and ended in a point in time.

even if you say it is “uncreated.” In other words, you made takfiir for yourself when you said: “Allah’s words are eternal. In fact, to claim otherwise, as the Mu’tazilas do, is clear cut Kufr.”

Yes, when people operate on backwards contradictory logic, of course it would seem that we would make takfeer of ourselves.

The Muˆtazilah said, like you, that Aļļaah’s speech is letters and sounds. They said it is created because it is letters and sounds, and letters and sounds have a beginning, so they must be created. You take this one step further in deviation by denying the obvious, which is that anything with a beginning, such as letters, is a creation. It is a creation because it came into existence, which means it was brought into existence. To be brought into existence is the very definition of being created.

But what we are trying to explain to you intellectually inept counterparts is that your logic can only be applied to creational objects of this world. These concepts do not apply to the Divine, hence your tashbeeh. Furthermore we are as well explaining to you that all of the attributes of Allah stem from speaking about His essence. You don’t call the actions of Allah “created” which is exactly what you are doing. You do so for all sifaat fi’iliyyah, istiwaa, creating of the world, including His speech.

You all used the same logic for the concept of “change” and applied pagan philosophies about their concept of change and then subjected Allah into inabilities due to your subjugation of Him thus nullifying all of your wonton tanzih of Him.

Besides, do you not know that the Arabic language was created by Aļļaah? So if Arabic is a creation, how can Arabic speech be anything but a creation?

Because we believe ALL ilm comes from Him. The knowledge to build planes comes from Him, the knowledge of mathmatics comes from him, all ilm comes from Him and all Muslims are agreed to this. This lugha, is from the knowledge of Allah. It is kufr to say that “man created language” because this is saying that the essence of this ilm comes from man and not Allah. It does not matter in the manner of how languages came about, the fact remains that the knowledge contained in anything is essentially from Allah. That is the meaning of believing that Allah is the possessor of all knowledge.

If one were to call the Arabic language created as it is the action and implementation of the ilm of Allah, then one must as well say that Allah’s act of creating Adam is as well created, and this is essentially absurd. The only thing that can be said is that language, its development, has been developed and adopted by men through experience and there is a long discussion that Ibn Taymiyyah related in his “Kitaabul-Eman” where he mentions a chapter on this subject regarding haqiqah and dhaahir and he quotes the reputed champions on this subject like Abu Ubayd, al-Baqilaanee, Abu Ishaaq and others.

The meaning of the phrase “Qu’aan is not created”
When Ahlu-s-Sunnah, the AsħˆAriyys and the Ĥanafiyys, say that the “Qu’aan is not created” they are referring to Aļļaah’s eternal attribute of speech that is not sound or letters. In other words, the Speech that the book of the Qur’aan refers to.

The saying of Ahlu-s-Sunnah is that the words and letters in the printed copies of the Qu’raan refer to Aļļaah’s eternal kalaam, and tell us in Arabic what He said eternally without letters, sounds or words. It is therefore correct to say that “the Qur’aan is not created,” because the word “qur’aan” actually refers to what Aļļaah tells us, and His speech is not created. It is not correct, however, to say that the words, letters, and sounds associated with the book are not created, because words and letters need a creator, and because the Arabic language, the language of the book, is a creation.

then what do you think of your beliefs in light of the following, which still has not been addressed and I doubt you will be able to address

Haafidh at-Tabari blasts all of this kalam into smickerins with the following

القول في القرآن وأنه كلام الله فأول ما نبدأ بالقول فيه من ذلك عندنا : القرآن كلام الله وتنزيله ؛ إذ كان من معاني توحيده ، فالصواب من القول في ذلك عندنا أنه : كلام الله غير مخلوق كيف كتب وحيث تلي وفي أي موضع قرئ ، في السماء وجد ، وفي الأرض حيث حفظ ، في اللوح المحفوظ كان مكتوبا ، وفي ألواح صبيان الكتاتيب مرسوما ، في حجر نقش ، أو في ورق خط ، أو في القلب حفظ ، وبلسان لفظ ، فمن قال غير ذلك أو ادعى أن قرآنا في الأرض أو في السماء سوى القرآن الذي نتلوه بألسنتنا ونكتبه في مصاحفنا ، أو اعتقد غير ذلك بقلبه ، أو أضمره في نفسه ، أو قاله بلسانه دائنا به ، فهو بالله كافر ، حلال الدم ، بريء من الله ، والله منه بريء ، بقول الله عز وجل : ( بل هو قرآن مجيد في لوح محفوظ (1) ) ، وقال وقوله الحق – عز وجل – : ( وإن أحد من المشركين استجارك فأجره حتى يسمع كلام الله (2) ) . فأخبر ، جل ثناؤه ، أنه في اللوح المحفوظ مكتوب ، وأنه من لسان محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم مسموع ، وهو قرآن واحد من محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم مسموع ، في اللوح المحفوظ مكتوب ، وكذلك هو في الصدور محفوظ ، وبألسن الشيوخ والشباب متلو . قال أبو جعفر : فمن روى عنا ، أو حكى عنا ، أو تقول علينا ، فادعى أنا قلنا غير ذلك فعليه لعنة الله وغضبه ، ولعنة اللاعنين والملائكة والناس أجمعين ، لا قبل الله له صرفا ولا عدلا ، وهتك ستره ، وفضحه على رءوس الأشهاد يوم لا ينفع الظالمين معذرتهم ، ولهم اللعنة ولهم سوء الدار
»

القول في القرآن وأنه كلام الله
Chapter: What is said about the Qur’an that it is indeed the Speech of Allah

To begin with, we start off with the saying of that which is with us that

“The Qur’an is the Speech of Allah and is revelation from Him, since it is from the Attributes of His Oneness (tawheed), indeed the correctness from our speech in that which is with us of which we conclude is ‘the Speech of Allah is not created in how it is written and in where it is and in whatever place it is recited, whether above the heavens in its location (law al-mahfoodh), or on the earth where it is preserved, or in the Preserved Tablet (al-Lawh al-Mahfoodh) were it was inscribed, or on a tablet (board, panel) where the youth in primary schools trace it on, or engraved on stone, or if it is written on paper, or if it is preserved in the hearts, whether it is spoken of on the tongue.

And whoever says other than that or claims that the Qur’an that is in the earth or the heavens differs from the Qur’an in which we recite with our tongues and write in our musaahif (copies of the Quran), or he believes other than that in his heart or he conceals it within himself, or he speaks of it with his tongue and accounts with it, then he is a disbeliever in Allah, his blood is permissible, he is clear and free from Allah, and Allah is free and clear from him, for Allah Honored and Exalted be He said

{ بل هو قرآن مجيد في لوح محفوظ }
“Nay! This is a Glorious Quran. (Inscribed) in the Preserved Tablet”

And He said a correct saying, Honored and Exalted be He

{ وإن أحد من المشركين استجارك فأجره حتى يسمع كلام الله }
“And if anyone one of the mushrikoon seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that they may hear the Word of Allah (the Quran)”

Indeed Exalted and Praised is He, informed that indeed it (the Qur’an) is in the Preserved Tablet which was written, and it was heard upon the tongue of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم , and it is a single Qur’an from Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم which was heard. It (the Qur’an) was written in the Preserved Tablet, and likewise it is in the revealed preservation (that which is memorized), and it is with the tongues of the shuyookh (people of knowledge and old age) and the youth in their recital (of it)

Abu J’afar said “whoever narrates from us or relates from us or speaks on our authority and claims that we say other than this then may the curse and anger of Allah be upon him and may the curses of the accursed and the Angels, and of men altogether (be on him).Then Allah won’t accept from him anything of that which he spends or gives justice to, and degradation covers him, and on the day in which he will be fully exposed and which the oppressor’s excuse will avail them not, then on them be the curses and a terrible abode.

———————————————————–
My own observational commentary.

Observe, oh heretics, the ayaah of your Lord who said

{ وإن أحد من المشركين استجارك فأجره حتى يسمع كلام الله }
“And if anyone one of the mushrikoon seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that they may hear the Word of Allah (the Quran)”

Allah is instructing Muhammad alaihi salatu salaam to recite the quraan.

The ash’aris beleive that our recital is created. When we recite for example ya ayuhall-adhina amanu (in arabic), then each letter is emergent and did not exist before it, thus created. Therefore the Asharis have heretically cornered themselves to two stances that they must concede to logically if they do not wish to accept our sunni stance. I must note, both stances are kufr
1. If Muhammad alaihi salatu wa salaam’s recital of the qur’an was emergent and therefore created, then that means Allah called His kalaam created BECAUSE after Allah commanded Muhammad to recite, He the Most High, offered the reasoning of
“So that they hear the Word of Allah (hatta yasma’u kalaamullah)”
Therefore, in the long run, they would have to accept that Allah’s actual kalaam is created BASED on this very ayaah, or that Allah lied to us when He said “So that they may hear the kalaam of Allah”
that’s the first stance.
2. If they find themselves needing to escape from the implications of the first stance i.e. kufr, then the only other stance that they can adopt while still not being “wahhabi” is that the speech of Muhammad alaihi salatu wa sallaam is uncreated and thus shares this Divine Attribute with Allah. That might not be bad for sufis though as they pretty much associated Muhammad with a number of other Divine Attributes specific to Allah alone lol.
But wait, we are still in ash’arism, which means if Muhammad’s kalaam is identical’s to Allah, then that means Muhammad’s kalaam is kalaam nafsi as well, therefore he is not speaking to his companions through his mouth with sounds and letters, he is doing it with his “WILL” and “making” them understand His “Will” just as Allah made Musa understand His Will.

Anyways, back to the statement of Haafidh at-Tabari, the one whom they claim to respect and hold dear, and even slander him by saying he was of them.

He clearly states that the Qur’an is the Qur’an and it does not matter one bit in the mode o its preservation and he lists a number of examples and there is no such thing as a Qur’an and then an “expression” of the Qur’an, and then he concludes with the clear “sareeh” sunnah that whoever believes in other than this, and us (salafi/athari) then they are disbelievers in Allah and reviles and curses them

An example to clarify is that the word “Aļļaah” refers to Aļļaah.

{ وإن أحد من المشركين استجارك فأجره حتى يسمع كلام الله }I do not worship these letters, or the sounds of uttering this word. Rather, I worship the one they refer to. In the same sense, the words, letters and Arabic in the are not themselves Aļļaah’s attribute of Speech, but refer to that attribute. They tell us what Aļļaah said.

Even in our daily lives, we speak of speech in this way.
for example, if I have a transcript in Arabic of something the U.N. Secretary General said, I will refer to it as “the U.N. Secretary General’s speech”, although his actual, real speech is something in the president Himself, meanings inside of him that he wanted to express (like when you say, “I have something to say in mind) – his internal speech. Alternatively, his real speech is his speech of letters and sounds, that he expressed in another language at a particular point in time, the speech that was originally just meanings that he had in mind. The paper with the transcript, however, just tells me what he said. So if I handed the Arabic transcript to someone saying, “This is the U.N. Secretary General’s speech,” no one would understand from this that his real speech was in Arabic. No one would tell me, “liar, it was not in Arabic.” No one would tell me, “Liar, the speech of the president occurred days ago from his mouth. It was sounds, not written words.”

The reason is that such transcripts and other forms of narration, that refer to the speaker’s real speech are customarily called “so and so’s speech.” This is why the letter’s and sounds we find in the books of the Qur’aan are called Aļļaah’s Kalaam/Speech, even though His eternal speech is not created, and therefore not words, letters or sounds.

From this we know that the word “Qur’aan” has two meanings. The first is the book, the organized and sequential Arabic words and letters of the muşĥaf. The second it the eternal Speech of Aļļaah that the words and letters of the muşĥaf refer to, and that is not itself words, letters, language or sequence.

is there any doubt that you are nothing more than a mushabih, and you have got the nerve to call us mushabiha

your blinded by your own jahl and heresy that you were made blind to see your own tashbeeh of Allah likening Him and His speech to that of a UN secratary general’s speech

and now the finality of the matter

Lately some of the wahabis think themselves clever and ask: “Who said alif laam miim?” Let me respond to that with a question: “Who created the Arabic language which alif and laam and miim are part of?”

the new question is

For those who void answering whether or not Alah said Alim Lam Meem then

{ وإن أحد من المشركين استجارك فأجره حتى يسمع كلام الله }
“And if anyone one of the mushrikoon seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that they may hear the Word (kalaam) of Allah (the Quran)”

Allah says and affirms through this aayaa that they can hear the kalaaam of Allah VIA the speech, letters, and sound that Muhammad initiates in a point in time with his created lisaan.

the question for you jahmis is

how did they, or anyone else, here the kalaam of Allah?

did they hear His Kalaam, or did Allah lie when He revealed this?